VMware Communities
anothersite
Contributor
Contributor

Fusion Beta 3 disappoints me

I am going to list some issues that I have with VMware Fusion Beta 3. I am not looking to see if they are already reported. I am contributing what I can, because I thought Fusion had potential.

1) Windows 2000 default hard disk size is 8 GB. Preallocate disk using 2 GB splits causes four 2 GB plus one 1 MB, yes 1 MB file! Changing selection to 7 GB disk size and using preallocate disk using 2 GB splits causes three 2 GB plus one 1 GB file. What on Earth is happening with the 8 GB size? Don't bother telling me that it does not matter. VMware controls the disk allocation, they could have come up with a neater solution then four 2 GB files plus one 1 MB file. The current solution is sloppy programming.

2) Creating a new VM from an already created VM disk should be as simple as 1) open Fusion, 2) select Clone from File or Edit menu, 3) point to the VM disk through a dialog box, with ability to truly clone or just use in a different VM, 4) setup VM, if needed. Done. Alternatively, start with a previously created VM and select Clone from menu. Simple like Workstation 5 and 6. Creating a new VM is currently too complicated, non-obvious, and ends up with confusing things like the old file name in the window header if the VM disk has been created in the Finder by cut and paste item. There is no obvious way to change the window header name, e.g the obvious way of clicking in the name and changing it.

3) Why bother having 2 GB file creation option for ease of back on a file system that does not support larger file size then putting the created files in a package? They are effectively hidden for "regular" Mac users who know nothing of packages.

4) I could go on about more issues, but I won't bore anyone further. Smiley Happy

5) Please do not tell me that VMware is for technical users, blah, blah, blah. Fusion has accelerate 3D graphics with DirectX 8.1 support in Windows XP SP2 Devices. "For a list of games..." VMware is going to try and sell this product to gamers, not just techies. The interface and features make little sense for run of the mill mac users, especially including another segment (beyond gamers) that is dying for a slick way to run Windows and OS X at the same time: Dragon NaturallySpeaking users. They are not going to know how to mess with packages, troubleshoot setting up new VM from old ones, etc..

Sorry for the rant, but Parallels is buggily miserable, Workstation is great and Fusion say-what. Fusion is not ready to get a favorable magazine review from an honest reviewer. It is as simple as that. That lowest common denominator should be the goal for a mass market product like this one.

BTW, I ran some of my points through real regular Mac users that fit the gamer/voice recognition user mold, and had them work with Fusion. They were baffled by Fusion, and it has nothing to do with it being a Beta. The interface is simply wrong for them.

0 Kudos
19 Replies
dp_fusion
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

You read the craziest things here. I don't need any of what you expect or need. Maybe that's crazy, too. I just don't need it. Don't give a flip about games. I don't need to create vm's for sport. I certainly don't need Fusion to clone existing vm's as it is a trivial thing to do. I need to make money and this tool is a way to do that. Good you have all that free time for gaming, though.

0 Kudos
Tony_Arnold
Contributor
Contributor

Yes, you do read the craziest things. Like your post, dp_fusion. anothersite is a user of the product, therefore his feedback and requirements are things that VMware should listen to, just as they listen to yours.

0 Kudos
sgmelin
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hi

1) Windows 2000 default hard disk size is 8 GB.

Preallocate disk using 2 GB splits causes four 2 GB

plus one 1 MB, yes 1 MB file! Changing selection to 7

GB disk size and using preallocate disk using 2 GB

splits causes three 2 GB plus one 1 GB file. What on

Earth is happening with the 8 GB size? Don't bother

telling me that it does not matter. VMware controls

the disk allocation, they could have come up with a

neater solution then four 2 GB files plus one 1 MB

file. The current solution is sloppy programming.

It seems to be a bug, if that´s true (i did not test it).

2) Creating a new VM from an already created VM disk

should be as simple as 1) open Fusion, 2) select

Clone from File or Edit menu, 3) point to the VM disk

through a dialog box, with ability to truly clone or

just use in a different VM, 4) setup VM, if needed.

Done. Alternatively, start with a previously created

VM and select Clone from menu. Simple like

Workstation 5 and 6. Creating a new VM is currently

too complicated, non-obvious, and ends up with

confusing things like the old file name in the window

header if the VM disk has been created in the Finder

by cut and paste item. There is no obvious way to

change the window header name, e.g the obvious way of

clicking in the name and changing it.

Use your Finder and Select "duplicate" from the context menu. That´s it. Where exactly is your problem? On a Mac you use your System to make File Operations. Not a 3rd party software.

3) Why bother having 2 GB file creation option for

ease of back on a file system that does not support

larger file size then putting the created files in a

package? They are effectively hidden for "regular"

Mac users who know nothing of packages.

It´s because of using Fusion VMs in WS or Server. And to be compatible. I guess, you didn´t understand the philosophy of VMware´s product range. Use VMs on every product with ease. That´s it. You are not bothered with that 2GB option. It´s for advanced users. Not for you.

5) Please do not tell me that VMware is for technical

users, blah, blah, blah. Fusion has accelerate 3D

Fusion is NOT for technical users. It is designed for the average Mac user which need an other OS. Just for education or for work. You can run through the wizard and click just next and ypu will get a skeleton, which is runable.

Sorry for the rant, but Parallels is buggily

miserable, Workstation is great and Fusion say-what.

It WS you have much more options than in Fusion. And you preferre WS, because it´s easier? You are really crazy.

Fusion is not ready to get a favorable magazine

review from an honest reviewer. It is as simple as

that. That lowest common denominator should be the

goal for a mass market product like this one.

BTW, I ran some of my points through real regular Mac

users that fit the gamer/voice recognition user mold,

and had them work with Fusion. They were baffled by

Fusion, and it has nothing to do with it being a

Beta. The interface is simply wrong for them.

Because of what? Because you can not use it with a joystick? Or because they are not familiar with the Mac GUI?

Let sit a standard Windows User in front of a Mac and he has really problems to use it. Because the think MS like. It´s much more complex and the workflow is too different. Fusion is Mac like. It find´s the VMs on the Volumes. It generated packages and does not bother the user with files. Yu can use drag´n´drop like in every other Mac SW. It is not a Windows Program and not compareable with that. Step back and think again.

Fusion is not for gamers (with DirectX8.1 Support you cannot use actual games, you hero). It is for users which want to make a game than and when. An old game.

0 Kudos
anothersite
Contributor
Contributor

Thank you for being polite, Tony_Arnold. I offered my views in this <u>Beta</b>forum so that they would be seen and it might help make Fusion a little better product. I already knew everything that was correct in what I was "told" by the other two postings, so far, but I am more disappointed by their tone.

My main point is that Fusion's current Beta 3 interface does not appear to match the needs of who this product is going to be marketed to. For example, why use a small unlabeled triangle to access advanced VM setup features? Why not have a big button that says "Custom Install" and when clicked on you get all the options and there is also a button that says "Easy Install" to take you back to Easy Install (Default), which would be very like installing OS X. A ListBox control would also work and be in keeping with what I have commonly seen other OS X apps use during installation.


BTW, I may not be working in IT now but I have 30 years of experience using/programming/etc. IBM mainframe, DEC PDP-11, DOS (of course), Mac system 7 and up, Windows 3.1 and up, etc.. (I don't use the term "computer geek" or "hacker" for myself although some of my non-technical friends try to use it on me, because I am old enough to have seen the real McCoy.) More importantly, I have run offices where I have had to deal with unusual user questions, or non-performance because the user was confused and did not know what to do, because the interface did not work for the user.

If anyone feels like making anymore snide comments, feel free because I won't be reading them.[b][/b][i][/i][u][/u][b][/b]

0 Kudos
RDPetruska
Leadership
Leadership

In response to your #1...

GB <> GB <> GB. An 8 GB drive is 16777216 sectors in size. The 2GB-split files are a max. of 4192256 sectors, or actually 1.99 GB (slightly less than 2 GB). And, the preallocated files 2GB-split size is 4193792 sectors - just a wee bit different. So, if you want to create an 8 GB file, it takes 44192256 + 18192.

In response to #3...

I do not understand why VMware decided to put all the files into one "package" file, instead of in a folder like all their other products. It makes in infinitely harder to troubleshoot/diagnose anything. But, I guess this follows most other Apple design mentality, which to me has always seemed to assume their users are dumb, and do not require any knowledge of computers in order to use them (e.g. error messages --> "System Error encountered. Reboot?" with the only available option an "OK" button; motherboards with every hardware option built into the board, so when one component goes bad, the only thing to do is replace the entire board, instead of just swapping out one bad component).

Message was edited by:

RDPetruska

I had forgotten to comment on point #3.

0 Kudos
admin
Immortal
Immortal

1. Robert already explained why this is, so I won't address it. Also, by your own admission, "regular" Mac users will never look inside the package.

2. How often does the target consumer market want to clone a machine, anyway? I agree the lack of an newbie-obvious way to change the name is confusing, would solving this address your cloning concern or are there other problems?

3. This is for advanced users, and maybe for people using a FAT32-formatted drive for sharing data (say with BootCamp). "Regular" Mac users shouldn't need to use them.

4. If you don't state your other issues, how do you expect them to be fixed? If you don't want to clutter the forums (an understandable position), at least send your concerns to the developers.

5. Other than the Custom Install/Easy Install button, what about the interface "makes little sense for run of the mill mac users"?

Finally, of course it's not ready yet, that's why it's a beta. While you raise valid points, the tone of your posts is pretty confrontational - I read them as "A, B, and C are wrong, VMware is incompetent, and I'm here to rant but I won't listen." This probably isn't what you actually meant, but it's how it came across to me.

0 Kudos
Deryni
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I do not understand why VMware decided to put all the

files into one "package" file, instead of in a folder

like all their other products. It makes in

infinitely harder to troubleshoot/diagnose anything.

But, I guess this follows most other Apple design

mentality, which to me has always seemed to assume

their users are dumb, and do not require any

knowledge of computers in order to use them (e.g.

error messages --> "System Error encountered.

Reboot?" with the only available option an "OK"

button; motherboards with every hardware option

built into the board, so when one component goes

bad, the only thing to do is replace the entire

board, instead of just swapping out one bad

component).

As I understand it, this was to make it more "intuitive" for a regular Mac user that the virtual machine is a single "document". Thus present it to them as a package. A directory full of files may be confusing to some mac users.

Note that behind the scenes, the package actually is only a directory.... so if you drop to a terminal and go cd'ing around, you can cd into the package.

0 Kudos
SMB1
Expert
Expert

As I understand it, this was to make it more

"intuitive" for a regular Mac user that the virtual

machine is a single "document". Thus present it to

them as a package. A directory full of files may be

confusing to some mac users.

Their OS isn't a single document. Their home directory isn't a single document. Why should suddenly an application (most applications are not single documents) have to be a single document so as not to confuse? The type of people that would be 'confused' by multiple files will use the UI and only the UI, they don't go poking around an applications support files.

0 Kudos
Deryni
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Their OS isn't a single document. Their home

directory isn't a single document. Why should

suddenly an application (most applications are not

single documents) have to be a single document so as

not to confuse? The type of people that would be

'confused' by multiple files will use the UI and only

the UI, they don't go poking around an applications

support files.

Your virtual machine isn't an application. VMware Fusion is the application. Your virtual machine is a thing upon which your application works on. When you use Office (Neo-, Open-, MS-, whatever), you open a document. The same concept for Fusion. You go and open your VM "document". And makes it easier for an end user when they wish to move their VM document from one drive to another. They just drag the "document" over, instead of an entire directory (Which is what they're doing anyway... but it's the presentation that matters).

0 Kudos
anothersite
Contributor
Contributor

I am sorry. I will respond.


Please read my first post. I was polite, but disappointed. I did not want to bore other readers with further issues that I presented in a simple list format for simplicity, one of which I later detailed in the second post.


Please note that two of the first three responses to my first post were condesending. There is no other term for it. Later responses have been much more polite, and I appreciate it.

Please read my second post. I was polite. I simply didn't want to keep responding to the techno elite who derides someone that might actually see what might to hamstring run of the mill mac users of the product. For example, Mac users will use Finder to create a duplicate/copy & paste of a VM then the Mac users will be befuddled when that disk file package is used in a different VM but the name at the top of the VM window does not match the new VM but still matches the old VM name. I stopped going further into these details, because I realized the response that I would get as I was typing my input. And I got it.


Please read the "tone" of your response. How can you use " marks for something that I never wrote? I find that behavior rude. I really don't want to be dragged into some sort of flamewar. I have seen many over the years and have never knowingly started one. Please stop trying to interpret how I "came across" to you. Please, just read my words plainly.

BTW, since I have used Workstation 4, 5 and 6 for over 3 years and think it is "great," as I have already written in this thread, I am absolutely befuddled how anything that I have written could be interpreted as "... VMware is imcompetent ..."

0 Kudos
admin
Immortal
Immortal

Their OS isn't a single document. Their home directory isn't a single document. Why should suddenly an application (most applications are not single documents) have to be a single document so as not to confuse?

As Deryni says, VM != app, so I'm not sure where you were going with this. There's precedent for documents being bundles; for example, TextEdit's .rtfd files are actually bundles.

It's not clear from your post whether you know this or not, but on OS X, apps are also packages which encapsulate resources (icons/localizations/properties) and code (possibly multiple copies for different architectures). All this has to live somewhere and the normal user shouldn't be fiddling with it, so why give them the chance to? It's sort of like a super resource fork.

I think the VM-folder-as-a-document will be much less painful once the lock file and renaming issues are fixed. Are there other problems with VM-folder-as-a-document that I'm forgetting?

Added rtfd example -etung 2007.05.31 16:19

0 Kudos
RDPetruska
Leadership
Leadership

>Are there other problems with VM-folder-as-a-document that I'm forgetting?

Yes. It goes back to the entire concept that Apple users are treated as if they are stupid/ignorant.

Remember, that VMware is running/presenting a complete computer system[/i] here, folks! This is NOT a simple word processor program opening up a document. This is a (virtual) computer. A physical computer has many parts, and so does a virtual one. Memory (vmem), Hard Disk (vmdk), BIOS (nvram), and other configuration information (vmx). Please treat it as such, and stop treating users like idiots.

0 Kudos
SMB1
Expert
Expert

on OS X, apps are also packages which

encapsulate resources

(icons/localizations/properties) and code (possibly

multiple copies for different architectures). All

this has to live somewhere and the normal user

shouldn't be fiddling with it,

Yes, thats why a normal user (who apparently is confused by multiple files if not outright scared of them) copy an app package to /Applications and the system takes care of expanding that out to /Library and /System if needed. In just the same way, the files that make up the VM are just support files for Fusion to do it's work. There are many files in /Library, they don't scare OS X users.

The user who does not want to know about how their computer works clicks on the app and magic happens. This type of user will use the Fusion UI and never know what happens behind the scenes and multiple files or one file will mean nothing to them.

The type of user that will care, will already know a little bit more and won't be paralyzed by fear when they look in /Users/$USER/Virtual Machines and see a directory with a dozen files in it.

0 Kudos
admin
Immortal
Immortal

Please note that two of the first three responses to my first post were condesending.

I agree dp_fusion and sgmelin weren't too tactful, but if you begin with the premise that your original post was inflammatory, their reaction is more understandable.

I stopped going further into these details, because I realized the response that I would get as I was typing my input. And I got it.

If you assume you'll get a certain response and write that way, it may make it more likely you get that response.

Please read the "tone" of your response. How can you use " marks for something that I never wrote? I find that behavior rude. Please stop trying to interpret how I "came across" to you. Please, just read my words plainly.

I'm not sure what you found offensive, but I didn't intend to be rude and I'm sorry if it seemed that way. "makes little sense for run of the mill mac users" is a direct quote of your original post, point 5. In the last part, I tried to avoid putting words in your mouth, hence "[b]I[/b] read them as" and "This probably isn't what you actually meant, but it's how it came across to me[/b]" - I can only give you my reaction to your post, similar to how you thought I was being rude. Since we're not talking face to face, it's difficult to judge where on the polite<->rant scale you were being.

I really don't want to be dragged into some sort of flamewar.

Yeah, I'd like that too Smiley Happy As can (hopefully) be seen from my posting history, I think Fusion is really great, so perhaps I read too much into your constructive criticism - I apologize for this.

For example, Mac users will use Finder to create a duplicate/copy & paste of a VM then the Mac users will be befuddled when that disk file package is used in a different VM but the name at the top of the VM window does not match the new VM but still matches the old VM name.

If you had said this (e.g. Here's a scenario that an average user would do, here's what they'd see, here's why it's a problem, and here's one way you might improve), you'd get a better response than what you did say (e.g. Here's what you need to do, and it's because copying is confusing). While these convey the same information and opinion, the tone is completely different.

BTW, since I have used Workstation 4, 5 and 6 for over 3 years and think it is "great," as I have already written in this thread, I am absolutely befuddled how anything that I have written could be interpreted as "... VMware is imcompetent ..."

Using Workstation/thinking it's great is mostly orthogonal to your opinion of VMware developers. I drew this conclusion because of your phrasing ("What on Earth is happening with the 8 GB size?" "The current solution is sloppy programming.").

Anyway, I hope that you'll continue to share observations about Fusion's UI and ways it can be made better.

0 Kudos
Bob_Zimmerman
Expert
Expert

So remove the ".vmwarevm" extension from the package. Presto. It's a folder with all of your files just like you[/i] apparently expect. You can even double-click on the .vmx file and it will open the VM. You can even remove a single character from that extension and it'll do the same thing.

I know, it's just so very, very hard to select the file, Get Info, and delete a whole character from the end of the filename.</snarky>

My question to you is why would a normal user (apparently the target market of Fusion) ever[/i] want to see the vmdk, the nvram, the vmem or any other backend part of the VM separately from the rest of the VM? Similarly, do these normal users ever open the computers they buy from Dell, Sony, HP, or anyone else? Do they care that they have 512 MB of DDR2 800 in a matched pair of two sticks of 256 MB? Do they care if their drives use SATA or PATA? Do they even know what these terms mean?

I would be willing to bet that most users have never even seen the inside of the computer they use most. For those who actually build their own machines and so forth, they can just take the extension off of the .vmwarevm package. It's five button presses and maybe a little mousing. It's even faster than undoing thumb screws on a well designed case.

Really, it isn't so much treating users as stupid/ignorant as it is recognizing that most people don't care.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm one of the people who initially proposed that VMware Fusion create packaged VMs by default.

0 Kudos
anothersite
Contributor
Contributor

Thank you for your response and I will take it to heart. Since I have physical typing limitations, I will take my typing to other forums. Read into it what you will. Thanks again, I mean it sincerely. Smiley Happy

0 Kudos
dp_fusion
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Well, I didn't express that well at all. The "crazy" part is the ying and yang. What he wants doesn't interest me at all, and perhaps vice versa. Nothing wrong with what he'd like to see in the product. And I do envy him is free time.

0 Kudos
shshjun
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

This is NOT a simple word processor program opening up a document.

IIRC beta1 was using folders and files then changed to package in beta2 for a reason.

anyway, if you want to get into files it's there. most likely you don't. in other words, which action you want in most cases, run the VM or get into files when you double clicking on the folder/package?

0 Kudos
dp_fusion
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I disagree. The virtual machine (Fusion) is an application of the host OS just as Java is an application of the host OS, and both are capable of running other applications in virtual machines.

The parallels (NPI) are huge. They both create environments that other code, for example Java applets/applications, or Windows/Linux, can run in. Java, as a VM, could easily host an operating system written entirely in Java, for example, just as does Fusion hosts code written for Intel environments. The Java code is an application for the Java VM, and Windows is an application for the Fusion VM when it is running in the VM. Windows in turn has applications that run within it, and those applications can manipulate data. Some Excel macros are so massive that they could also be thought of as applications, and certainly Perl code examples exist that are clearly applications by usage even of they're just data to Perl itself.

It is a semantic argument at best, though, and probably not very important. But it is interesting to wonder about running Solaris 10 containers in a Solaris global instance running in a Fusion virtual machine, and having those containers light off multiple Java virtual machines running web application servers.

0 Kudos